The Family Outpost, Episode 7 | Eleven Kids and Zero Apologies: The Blessing of Big Families (feat. Mandrae & Karissa Collins)

Our culture has trained us to ask one question about children: what will they cost? Mandrae and Karissa Collins, parents of eleven in the DFW area, have spent seventeen years asking a different one entirely: what is a family for? In this conversation, they share the sermon that changed everything, the four-year journey to get Mandrae fully on board, what a Tuesday actually looks like with eleven kids, and why simple trust and obedience produced the life they never planned but would not trade for anything. Whether you have one kid or eleven, this one will reframe how you see your family.

Episode Chapters

00:00 Intro and Theme Music

00:29 Welcome to The Family Outpost

00:47 Framing the Conversation

03:10 Outpost Challenge Field Report

06:45 Meet Mandrae and Karissa Collins

08:48 The Sermon That Changed Everything

12:23 Responding to Pushback

17:03 Trusting God With Provision

19:05 Family as a Team

23:51 Rhythms at Home

27:25 Presence Over Perfection

30:29 Making Time for Each Child

36:38 Trusting God With Family Size

43:06 Surrender and Obedience

46:18 Hope in Loss and Waiting

50:43 Outpost Challenge

55:29 Closing and Thank You

Outpost Challenge

Karissa challenged families to sit down together, ideally every Sunday, and read the Word out loud as a family. Start with 1 John chapters 1–3. Have each person who can read take a turn reading a few verses, then pause and discuss. Ask the kids what they are getting out of it. Pray together. Worship together. The goal is not a perfect Bible study. The goal is creating a safe, recurring space where every family member has a voice and hears that the Word is for them too.

Email us at familyoutpost@all4one.org to share your experience with this challenge.

Resources Mentioned

Be Fruitful and Multiply — book referenced by Karissa on trusting God with family size. The author was not named on air.

1 John 1–3 — the Scripture passage assigned in the Outpost Challenge.

Kingdom Hoops Basketball Club: https://kingdomhoopsllc.com

Mandrae and Karissa Collins on Instagram: @thecollinskidsfamily

Mandrae and Karissa Collins on TikTok: @thecollinskids

Links

The Family Outpost Podcast: https://www.all4one.org/the-family-outpost-podcast

All4One: https://www.all4one.org/

4MUS: https://www.4mus.org/

SportQuest: https://www.sportquest.org/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheFamilyOutpost

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/all4one_ministries/

Episode Transcript

Transcript lightly edited for clarity.

Karissa: For our children, when they walk out, they are a blessing not only to us in this house, but they’re gonna be a blessing to everybody on the outside of it.

Mandrae: You go one kid at a time, and now with 11, I’m like, I want 11 more.

Karissa: I wouldn't have it any other way. I’m a say that again for the record because people need to hear this. We have 11 children, and I absolutely wouldn't have it any other way.

Kevin: Welcome back to The Family Outpost, a show that’s all about being done drifting. And today, we've got some exciting guests. I think you’re gonna be inspired. You’re gonna be challenged, and you’re gonna certainly see, how a big family does life together. So before we jump in...

Kevin: Jump into having our guests, Rance, you and I were just talking about how this hit you, even the conversation around having 11 kids. You showed a little... Shared a little personal thing. Can you, share with everybody else what we just talked about?

Rance: Yeah. Absolutely. I’m I'm just thinking about those of you who are listening. I don’t I don’t know where you’re at in your family journey. Maybe you've got a big family.

Rance: Maybe you've got a small family. Maybe you wish your family was bigger. Maybe you actually wish it was smaller. But wherever this show is going to find you today, I just wanted to share a little personal reflection. You know, I’ve I've got two kids.

Rance: They are amazing, wonderful children. I would love to have a dozen of them. But if you remember back in episode one, we shared some of our family background, and there were, you know, some some factors that led to us really not arriving at this whole vision and and value for family until much later. And, you know, when you start late, you can’t have 11 kids. That’s just not in the cards for you.

Rance: But I am so grateful for the two kids that I have, and I see the role that I still have to play in casting a great vision for them of family so that when they get to the age of getting married and and having kids, they can fulfill the vision that God has for for them and for their family. And we’re gonna fully support that. And so what I want you to hear today is maybe two things. Number one, children are a blessing. It doesn’t matter if you have one kid or 11 kids.

Rance: Children are such a gift from God. And and I hope that really comes through loud and clear. And then I think the second thing is no matter where you are in your journey and your story, there may be feelings that are stirred up today as you as you listen to this. And I would encourage you to take that to the Lord, whatever it is. Don’t give in to the lies of, you know, it's...

Rance: I'm not enough or I did it wrong or whatever it is, just take it to the Lord and let him speak to you about his story because the story he's writing for each of our families is good. He is a good author. And so I just wanna encourage you with that today. And we are so excited to get into this conversation with our guests. I know you’re gonna love it.

Rance: But first, Kevin, we've got something else to share, don’t we?

Kevin: Yes. We gotta get into our Outpost Challenge from last week. So the last episode, we were challenged by Pete and Adrienne Reich, who are on a family adventure across America to do a little adventure with our family, create your own adventure with your kids. And so I leveraged AI, created a little adventure with decision makers. We got into character and deemed...

Kevin: We were the council. Kelly and I were the council. They were the keepers of of the adventure. And I got full character mode and had different roles for my kids within that led to decisions for them to make. I had my nephew in town with us, and he's 15, so he was the oldest.

Kevin: He was into it, he even eventually got into character with it, which was a lot of fun. It ended up being the entire day that we got through that, which, you know, wasn't necessarily planned. We took up most of the day, and and the best part was it didn’t go exactly as I thought it was gonna go in my head. But we’re driving home, and I hear my daughter, five year old in the back, just saying, this is the best day ever. So we were grateful for that challenge.

Karissa: We were grateful for

Rance: that challenge. Were there costumes involved in in getting into character?

Kevin: Not this time, but I will tell you, we will probably do this again and fully invest in the setup for it.

Rance: That's awesome. Awesome. Okay. Well, for for our adventure, we actually already had an adventure planned. We were gonna go camping.

Rance: So I just asked the kids, during this camping trip, what is it that you wanna do? Like, what kind of adventurous stuff? And my son wanted to go fishing, and my daughter wanted to swing in a hammock in the mountains. And so I said, done. You know, we're...

Rance: We can do that. Lo and behold, the day before we leave to go camping, we had preserved our spot at the campground. There was a fire literally at our campground that spread throughout the forest. And, you know, there's smoke in the air all in that area, so it’s all shut down. So we did not go camping.

Rance: We had to pivot, and we ended up just doing a day trip. We went to a different, you know, part of the forest. It’s called the Pecos Wilderness. And we found us a nice little spot where we kind of set up shop right along the Pecos River. We did some fishing.

Rance: Both my son and my daughter, you know, threw a threw a line out into the water. There was no fish caught this day, but that was sort of inconsequential. They had a blast, and my daughter got to swing in the hammock. And my wife was there. She also mostly was in the hammock and just a relaxing, fun, adventurous day.

Rance: We had to cross the river by taking off our shoes. Just, you know, made it feel a little more... It wasn't like it was deep, but it... You know, adventure is good. Getting out of your element, it just brings you together as a family.

Kevin: That's good. That’s good. And so if you jumped into character and did something fun with your family, please still let us know. Drop us a comment. We wanna hear from you guys.

Kevin: And so at this point, without further ado, I think we go hang out with our guests a little bit.

Rance: Let's do it. Our guests today are Mandrae and Karissa Collins. And, yes, they have 11 children. 11. And I wanna name that reaction that you just had because that’s exactly what today's episode is about.

Rance: So here's what I know about Mandrae and Karissa. I don’t think either of them came from a big family. I think they entered into marriage pretty much like a lot of us do, kind of the five year plan. But then there was a moment that changed everything, and they’re gonna share that on today's episode. And now they have 11 children.

Rance: They live on three acres in Texas. They’re homeschooling, home church, basketball ministry. Shout out to Mandrae who's played with the Harlem Globetrotters and is now running a Kingdom Hoops organization in the Dallas Fort Worth area. And I know that probably millions of people are following them on social media and are are able to tune in and see what a family fully surrendered to God actually looks like. They've got a great platform.

Rance: Mandrae served with us in the extreme character challenge, and I’ve gotten to see his giftings up close with connecting with men and just speaking what God puts on his heart. And so excited to have him and excited to meet Karissa today on this episode and just to learn more about their journey with their big, beautiful family. So Mandrae Karissa, welcome to The Family Outpost.

Karissa: Thank you, Dave. Glad to be here.

Rance: Well, I just wanna say right up front that as we talk about big families, we’re not here to make anyone feel guilty about the size of their family. There's not a certain, you know, threshold that have number of children everybody must have, but they’re here today because they've lived what actually a lot of people in our culture today are saying might be irresponsible or it’s too expensive or just plain crazy. Mandrae and Karissa, you guys can speak to both the theology behind the family as well as just give us what a normal Tuesday afternoon looks like in a house with 11 kids. And so we’re excited to to learn from both perspectives.

Karissa: Absolutely.

Kevin: We're gonna jump back to the origin of this because when Rant and I were talking about this, this is what I was most curious about because Kelly and I, we've got five, but I tell everybody she had... I had a plan for two. She had an idea of three, and then we had God's plan. And so we’re at five, and who knows where we’ll end up. But it certainly was not the plan from the beginning nor was it ever a discussion to have a big family prior to getting married.

Kevin: So what was the genesis of that for you guys? Rance just mentioned a sermon. How did that all kinda happen or just happen?

Mandrae: We got married with a, like you said, five year plan. I actually didn’t really want children when we got married. I never liked children. That sounds so terrible. I was one of those people that sat at a restaurant and heard a baby cry and was like, make them stop, you know?

Mandrae: It it sounds awful. Okay? I didn’t want to be a mother. Motherhood didn’t look appealing to me. I was sold out for God, but we just said we were gonna...

Mandrae: Like I was taught, in church and youth group, we’re gonna wait five years, enjoy each other, travel, do all those things. I went on birth control when we got engaged just so that it kicked in by the time we got married, you know, whatever they say. We were living our life married on birth control and we went to a church service and the service was just about trusting God. Just trusting God in general. And the pastor said, is there anything in your life you’re not trusting God in?

Mandrae: And I left. I sat there in the whole church church thinking, what do we not trust God in? Like, we tithes, we go to church, we trust with our finances, our jobs. Like, I went through all the things and the Lord, like, threw it in my face. How...

Mandrae: When we have kids and how many kids we have, we have decided that on our own. We’re doing it on our own strength. We don’t trust him in that area. Like, we’re just doing what we think is what we think is wise. And so when we left, he got the same thing.

Mandrae: And so we decided that we were going to stop birth control. We were just going to give it to God.

Karissa: Everything she just said, I mean, we’re we're totally aligned when she when she talks about this story. We told it so many times. Right? But at the same time, she was... She's right.

Karissa: We left the church thinking, man. How is it that you trust God in every area of your life, but you wanna control this one? The actual one where he actually says that there's a... They’re they’re blessings. Right?

Karissa: Mhmm. But we wanna control that in one way, shape, or form. And so we walked away just saying, you know what? That... That’s it for birth control.

Karissa: And we just decided to trust god with everything starting there. Now it did come with some tribulations and stuff later on the road, which we’re gonna talk about.

Mandrae: Right.

Karissa: I don’t know if that leads to one of your questions later, so I’m just gonna hold off for now. But Yeah. But but to your point, Kevin, this is really the genesis for us because we all came in with our plans, but this was really the sermon, right, almost the sermon of the mouth for us, right, that really was the turning point in terms of how we've we've having more children.

Rance: God spoke and you listened. It was it was that simple, and now here you are. You know, when... Now with 11 kids, when people hear that, you know, I’m sure there's a whole range of reactions from that’s amazing to, are you kidding me? To probably...

Rance: I mean, you guys could tell us all the other reactions. But, you know, in our culture today, there's sort of this... These undertones that say, you know, the responsible thing to do is is have fewer, maybe focus more on your career, make sure that, you know, you don’t have too many so that you can give them all plenty of attention. And, you know, there's all this kind of pushback on on that. So as this conviction has developed for you since that moment, share with us what it is that has made you see things differently.

Karissa: I mean, I would say for me, man, I think that through my relationship with Jesus Christ, man, we perform... I got... I’m in an audience of one. I can care 2¢ about what anybody else has to say. And so for me, it’s all about pleasing him.

Karissa: And while a lot of people will be like, man, you know what? The responsible thing is the responsible thing is to trust the Lord. Yeah. Like, let's start there. Like, that’s the most responsible thing that we can do as human beings.

Karissa: Right? And so, yeah, you get a lot of that thrown on you. And and over the years, we have learned to just welcome it. Right? I...

Karissa: Like, I I actually... It allows us a opportunity to literally have a conversation. Wow. You guys have 11? How do you do that?

Karissa: Well, I’m glad you asked. Right? So now it just starts a whole new conversation, and and they get to see something. Because to Karissa’s point, she used to be that same person. Right?

Karissa: Like, can you get the kid to just shut up already? Right? But you can see the work that God's already done in her life and flipped it completely to where she's a complete advocate, right, for just trusting the Lord and having as many kids as you want versus telling the lady who has one to shut it up. And so I think that’s just a beautiful thing, man, in terms of... It...

Karissa: It's clear that it’s God who has really changed us and transformed us. And it hasn't been man or women... Or another woman's opinion. So I think that’s a beautiful thing. But go ahead.

Mandrae: So I will say conviction wise, initially, you start and you’re like, it it’s really simple. Just trust God. But then you get, like, family backlash. I had a parent disown me. We had churches completely offended by us.

Mandrae: Like, just so much persecution. And all... And even online, of course, especially online. And so we have... I have all those questions.

Mandrae: I've had people ask me, like, you know, the extremes and I would go I would go into my quiet place with the Lord and I would fast and be like, am I wrong? For the last eighteen, nineteen years, I’ve asked, like, am I wrong? Is this... Are we not supposed to trust you with this? Like, does the Bible tell us to be wise?

Mandrae: Is birth control from you? Like, I’ve asked all those questions. And because, like, I fully believe that the Lord has given me this ministry because in the last eighteen, nineteen years, he has literally shown me, like, question after question I have asked him, I have sought him, I have been willing to be wrong, I’ve been willing to prevent. I mean, once you know the truth and once you seek real wisdom, because wisdom only comes from the Lord, once you've sought real wisdom, the other stuff just sounds like trash. Like, I can’t even explain it.

Mandrae: Like, even the word prevent makes me, like like, I wanna vomit.

Karissa: It's almost like, what are you preventing? Right. Right. Like like, when you start... When you really grow in the Lord, you start hearing a lot of the things that people say and how they go about things.

Karissa: It's like, man, like, what do you block at blessings? Yeah.

Mandrae: Right? What are we preventing? What are we stopping? What are we tying our tubes for? And then, like, people will say, well, what if you can’t provide?

Mandrae: Well, I’ve asked that because every single child we've had, we technically can’t provide. You know, we don’t have a car big enough. We don’t have enough rooms. We don’t have we don’t have a savings account. We’re paycheck to paycheck.

Mandrae: We had a time when we lost our jobs and we had just moved and we had no income. And, like, if you can’t trust God with your finances... Like, if you’re trusting him with your... With how many children you have, you have to trust him with everything. And so the thing is, if we say, well, what about your provision?

Mandrae: Well, that means you’re not technically trusting him with your provision. So, like, every single question that you have for, like, continuing to trust him with your family's eyes is that you don’t trust him. So if I... If people say you... What about enough time?

Mandrae: Who is the author of time? What about enough money? Who is... Who has all their resources? And then people always say, well, if?

Mandrae: Well, a what if can happen anytime in your life. We cannot we cannot take our faith and only have it in circumstantial time. So when it's... When I have enough, then I can do this. It has to be...

Mandrae: There was a time when the Lord told me to quit my job because he wanted me to stand with my kids. And I was like, okay. That’s fine. Make a way and I’ll quit my job. Like, give us enough money.

Mandrae: Give my husband a raise. Make a way where we can provide for our family and I’ll quit my job. And I didn’t listen to God for three years, and I just kept saying make a way. Well, after three years of God telling me to quit my job, he said, that’s not faith. It’s not faith for me to just...

Mandrae: For you to just have what you need and then you obey me. That isn't what faith looks like. And I think that’s what a lot of believers are missing is that God wants you to just obey and then he does the other thing. He's not gonna give you all of the resources until he sees the obedience. And I think that’s the, like, this in the Christian faith with how many children we have is we’re not willing to just surrender and obey without seeing it first.

Mandrae: And faith is without seeing.

Rance: Well, let me just build on that because so so much of this conversation gets stuck on money and cost. And I think the figure that gets thrown out there is, you know, every child's gonna cost $300,000 and, you know, so multiply that by 11. But... So the question is, you know, can you afford another one? But I don't...

Rance: I think another way to put it is not that children became expensive in our culture as much as they actually became to feel unnecessary. There was a time in which you couldn't survive unless you had a big family. I mean, you needed, you know, help on the farm and and raising the crops. And and so in our modern culture, we've we've sort of created a world in which we’re very... We’re a lot less dependent on on anyone, including our own family and kids.

Rance: So what is it about your family that makes all 11 children absolutely necessary and and helps you see each one as a blessing who's adding value to the family instead of draining resources?

Karissa: Wow. Man, that... Do I... When you asked that question, I had so many things run through my mind because we see it firsthand. Like, we see...

Karissa: The saying that many hands make light work is so true. And in our house, right, I mean, we... We’ve got a large home here on a lot of on a lot of land to your point. But to see chores get done, right, in a matter of minutes, You know what I mean? To see the helping hands of one that will help another kid with their homework.

Karissa: Right? Without us... So they they can leverage one another. Like, leadership is literally being born every single day in our household. Right?

Karissa: Every child is willing to step up and be a big brother or big sister in their own right, in any capacity. Right? Whether that's, hey. Help her fold her fold her clothes. Right?

Karissa: Help him do his dishes. Help him with his chores. You’re done for the day. Right? But those are the things that I really love, and I think they’re absolutely necessary.

Karissa: Not just necessary for us running our household, but they’re necessary for what they’re gonna do in their lives.

Rance: That's right.

Karissa: Yeah. They’re learning such great principles that are even unspoken and not even told to them. But they’re just willing to do it because now they have many... They have a lot of other bodies that they can actually mix and mingle, and they can put those things into exercise. So

Rance: Yeah.

Karissa: I think it’s incredible. And just having a lot... I wouldn't have it any other way. I’m a say that again for the record because people need to hear this. We have 11 children, and I absolutely wouldn't have it any other way.

Karissa: I couldn't imagine my life being the way that it is today. I can’t imagine what God's gonna do with it even in the future. If there's more, great. If there's not, great. I can stand before God one day saying, man, I trusted you, and I did it your way.

Karissa: I think that too, when you say necessary, I see it in so many different ways and so many different forms. What about you, Riz?

Mandrae: So I think there's a huge misconception with big families. I... The thing I hear all the time is the older kids raise the little kids. And that bothers me so bad because that is so far from the truth. People just really don’t understand.

Mandrae: Like, you can’t understand something you never experienced. I didn’t understand it before I experienced it. I didn’t want it before I experienced it. I remember running into a lady with... I think she had seven kids and I had three and my jaw was on the floor.

Mandrae: Like, how in the world you go one kid at a time? And when I had two children, I remember, like, drowning, feeling like there's no way. There's no way I can do this. There's no way I can have another child. And now with 11, I’m like, I want 11 more, you know?

Mandrae: Like, it is so life giving. Mhmm. But the thing is, when I was growing up, I have one... I grew up with one sister. And on chore day, we had to clean the house and it took us ten hours to clean our house, our little house.

Mandrae: And I felt like a slave. You know, that sounds terrible. But I remember I remember the thought in my head. My mom had me just to clean her house. And now, we have 11 children and the thing that took me ten hours takes my kids one hour.

Mandrae: Like, they have... You have less to do. Your kids have less to do. The other thing that I’ve noticed in American culture is a lot of families with two kids, they the mom takes on all the responsibility. The mom does all the cleaning and all the chores.

Mandrae: The kids go play video games. And when you have 11 kids, the mom can’t take on all the chores. And so, all the kids help. So what I noticed is my mom, when she has my kids, like, she'll take my kids for a week sometimes in the summer, and she'll tell me, your children can do significantly more than a normal child. Like, your children are just self sufficient.

Mandrae: Like, they can a normal a normal teenager, a normal eight year old cannot do the things your kids can do. And it’s not because they’re forced to do those things. It’s because, like, the joy that they have in helping with their siblings. Now, here's the thing that people really probably don’t believe me on. I beg my kids to stop helping.

Mandrae: Okay? I tell my kids, please stop picking up the baby like you’re spoiling him. Stop trying to change your diaper. Stop... Like, I’m not gonna say stop doing laundry or dishes, but, you know, I...

Mandrae: Sometimes, I’m just like, you’re helping too much. You’re doing too much. Like, they’re obsessed with their siblings.

Karissa: Oh, yeah.

Mandrae: Just people just assume that they’re not... The teenagers want their alone time because that’s the normal teenager today. But the coolest thing is raising children that love their family, that love their siblings, and that want to help around the house. And when you have little bits to do, you’re more willing to help. But if I had two kids and I’m like, clean the whole house, they’re like, no.

Karissa: I've been an idiot. There you go. It’s true.

Kevin: And that’s that's interesting. My wife is... Has always been really good about the language we use and and not in terms of, like, cuss words or anything like that, but how we talk about our kids, around our kids, not around our kids, but to always be mindful that we talk about them as they are a blessing because they are a blessing. Because we could live in a world where they’re oftentimes an inconvenience of, like, I can’t wait to get them just sitting in the corner, putting in front of a TV screen, whatever. And, she's been so intentional about that, and it’s been so good because all my kids, it’s not just their environment where they’re around other siblings, it’s that they hear it.

Kevin: Even when we’re not thinking about it, they’re hearing that they are a blessing. And so they see themselves as a blessing, and they see their siblings as a blessing. So, of course, they want to be with them. They wanna be around them. They wanna help even to a fault.

Kevin: But, we’re talking a lot about what happens inside the home because a lot happens inside the home. But, from talking earlier, it sounds like there's a lot that happens outside the home, and a lot of people would think 11 kids that you can’t do anything outside the home. You got 11 kids. Kelly and I often talk about the fact that we want to spend as little time as possible having the house pulled together, all these things, conversations about decisions. We want to systematize as much as we can so we can focus on the relationships and the mission that we’re on.

Kevin: So a day in the life, a Tuesday in the life in your house, are there systems? Are there rhythms? Are there things that are just natural parts so that you can focus on what's actually important?

Mandrae: Yes. I mean, absolutely. Like, so a normal school day is different than a normal summer day. Because right now, we’re in the summer, but I can run through a normal school day. We...

Mandrae: They they have their routine. Like, because we homeschool, they can sleep in. So the kids usually get good rest, which is amazing. They wake up happy because they’re well rested. They'll wake up.

Mandrae: They know that they’re supposed to get ready for the day. They do their chores, clean their rooms, make their beds, clean the bathroom, whatever they have to do. And then we meet at the dining room table. We do our school together. It takes sometimes two to four hours depending on which child's do...

Mandrae: Which child I’m helping. I make lunch in the middle of all of that. We eat together. One of the things that we always do... So we have very specific rhythms.

Mandrae: So before we do school, the whole the whole house is picked up. Before we do lunch, we pick up. After lunch, we pick up. After school, we pick up. Before we go outside, we pick up.

Mandrae: Before we go to the grocery store, we pick up. Before we go to basketball. And so when we have that, they know, okay, it’s time to leave. Let's pick up. Then we never really have like these two hour cleaning sessions because we spend ten minutes picking everything up before we move on to any next thing.

Mandrae: So that has been, like, the greatest blessing for us is being able to know, like, this is what we’re gonna do before we move on to anything else.

Karissa: And if you think about that too, like, just in terms of what is teaching them in life. Right? If our kids go to a restaurant, they'll look significantly different than any other family. They will pick up that table and clean it off, and the workers are like, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Karissa: Like, that’s my job. But what they don’t realize is that our children are already conditioned at home to pick up behind themselves before they leave or before they move on. Right? And so it gives us an opportunity to be able to speak that even back into employees that come out, and they’re like, man, y'all's family's a blessing. Right?

Karissa: Kinda ties back into what Kevin was talking about is that, man, like, the mission on the outside of the house needs to be louder than the mission on the inside. Right? Because what you pour into the children inside the walls of your home should manifest in reality when they walk out of it. And so I... And, I mean, you think about the words of the Lord.

Karissa: He says, man, they will know you by the way that you love. Right? And the only way for them to know is to be able to see an outward expression of it. So for our children, when they walk out, they are a blessing not only to us in this house, but they’re gonna be a blessing to everybody on the outside of it that’s not used to living inside of it with them. And so this is just another aspect of it in terms of, hey, picking up behind yourself by just doing that in the open space, you just bless an employee with less work.

Rance: I love that. Just the piece that those rhythms and habits are creating in your family. Mandra, I wanna I wanna get a dad's perspective on this because, you know, there's a lot of men in our culture that would be like, 11 kids? I would want nothing to do with that. Like, that’s that's women's work.

Rance: You know? Like... But when you got 11 kids, you've gotta be involved. And so I... I’m wondering because I know you’re a coach.

Rance: Does that mindset of sort of, like, seeing your kids, your family as a team, you’re the coach, does that energize you? What what makes this so valuable for you to wanna engage as a dad in in a large family?

Karissa: Man, I love that question. And and honestly, I’ve sat in the presence of many men that have been vocal kind of just like what you talked about, Ray. There's no way I could ever. Right? All those things.

Karissa: But, honestly, as a dad and a coach in in quite literally, I get to be their coach because a lot of my kids play. Right? And so... But that mindset for me is I strive to be present versus being perfect. Right?

Karissa: There's only one perfect father. Right? I’m going to fall short. Like, I’ve literally sat down with my kids, and I’ve told them that my only goal in this life is to be a sign that points you to the father. And this was a one on one conversation I had.

Karissa: Not one on one. It’s it’s one on, like, 11, if you will, where I’m sitting them down across, and I’m having this conversation. And as I’m talking to them, I’m literally in tears because I know that there's gonna be a day where I won’t be here. Right? But at the end of the day, I want them to know that as long as I take their little hands and I can connect them to a father that’s eternal, that they'll have everything that they need in this lifetime.

Karissa: My stance, man, is to may... Strive to be present in every aspect of your children's life, regardless if you got one or you got 11. This whole thing about I don’t have time, like, that... That's... That excuse is gonna run itself ragged.

Karissa: Right? But it’s not about if you have enough time. The question is do you make enough time? And that’s something that I will always do regardless of how many that we have. You know, we do one on one dates.

Karissa: We go out. I go out with my daughters. I go out with my sons. Right? We spend time.

Karissa: We go on... She does, like, a girls trip with the girls, or she does, a date with the boys. Like, we make sure that we do that, for one another. So those children can have those one on one times, they can talk openly about anything that they may be going through, struggling through, or just successes. Right?

Karissa: Whatever that looks like. And so from a coaching standpoint, it’s it's... I gotta be able to take a dad hat off, put a coach hat on, and then vice versa. Right? But I think that at the end of the day, my ability to be able to steward them well, right, with whatever they’re going through and help them navigate through this life by either taking time apart and separating them or just keeping them together because what message that I have is for all of them.

Karissa: Right? We will do that. Every single week, we do our own church where we’re meeting together even as a family. We’re sitting on the couch and everybody's reading that can read, and and we allow them to have a voice in it. we ask questions like, man, what are you guys getting out of this?

Mandrae: The bible.

Karissa: Yeah. The bible. Yeah. He knows. But

Mandrae: I... We have other people listening.

Karissa: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. What are you getting out of this? Right?

Karissa: And so it’s an opportunity for all of us to to pray, and we challenge even some of our younger ones to, hey, to to just pray openly because if there's gonna be a safe place for them right here, is it? Right?

Mandrae: The challenge that they beg.

Karissa: Yeah. Now they... Yeah. Yeah. They do.

Karissa: They they beg pray. Like, I wanna go. Wanna go. Right?

Mandrae: We have to be like, oh, hey.

Karissa: Even at the dinner table. Right? So it’s just it’s just... Man, create the atmosphere that... In your house that you want your children to be able to thrive in.

Karissa: So that... That’s my take.

Kevin: I'm just thinking about what... Mandrae, sometimes you gotta slow down because there's just so much gold, and I think people miss it because you go from one thing to the next. And I wanna interrupt you, like, six times. Like, no. You gotta sit on that because this is really hard for men.

Kevin: And it’s so... It’s been so natural. Right? You know, audience of one, I don’t care what other people say. My kids are a blessing.

Kevin: Like, you almost come off in this way of this was only... As soon as it became natural to me, it became natural to me, there was no struggle. That’s wonderful. I was not the same way. And so I know that there's guys listening that are like, I don’t know.

Kevin: And what what I found to be true and what I had this internal struggle even when I knew that God was calling me to a bigger family or we were living it out was that I was still finding identity and purpose in my best time in my nine to five because that’s what the world had always told me. And the framework and the vision that I had for family was at home, and the vision and the framework for me was outside the home. And so that’s where it’s so easy for a man to say or see their kids, not as a blessing, but as an inconvenience and a cost and getting outside of the lifestyle that I’ve chosen, because they’re getting in the way of this identity and purpose. But when you use the framework of coach and have this vision of, like, I’m the coach, like, that is my purpose. That is that is where God has me.

Kevin: That is my identity. Then it does shift things. And all of a sudden, it’s like my greatest time spent, my greatest invest... Investment is in the home. And then all the giftings that you have outside the home, when you re repurpose them inside the home, it’s like, oh, okay.

Kevin: Wait a second. All these things that I actually like doing and seeing this progress made day by day, I get to see it in my own home. It’s like, oh, no. That is easy. That is natural.

Kevin: But it’s so hard because that’s what... I mean, that’s the framework that the world tells us. And so if it was easy for you, man, kudos to you. Yeah. And let

Karissa: me touch

Kevin: I look up to you.

Mandrae: But Yeah. Let's clarify.

Karissa: And and I wanna touch that because, Kevin, that was great. I like how you just framed that, man. I absolutely love it. And you’re right. There's no way possible that Mandrae arrived here on his own.

Karissa: Let me... I mean, if I bounce back, man, let me just tell you the struggle, right, and how I got to where I am today. And you know what? Four kids in? Three.

Karissa: Three kids in. Right? So three kids in, we were on... We're... Now now now mind you, we’re on this...

Karissa: We're trusting god with our family size, all of that on this journey. Right? But they were coming so fast, Kevin. Right? I’m like, hold on.

Karissa: Pump the brakes a little bit. Right? And the wifey got sick. So I’m like, man, they coming fast. My wife is sick.

Karissa: And so this was really where my fork in the road started to come in, where I’m like, man, I don’t I don’t know so... I don’t I don't... I’m not so sure really about this trusting god with the family size thing. Right? And I went to Karissa, and I remember having a conversation with her about, man, I know that she was already sold out about no more birth control, not going back on it.

Karissa: So it was like, man, it’s not gonna be her, so it’s gonna have to be me. Right? So my main objective at that point was, man, Mandrae’s gonna have to go get it for second.

Mandrae: Well, let's be clear. I was diagnosed with MS.

Karissa: Yes.

Mandrae: So it wasn't just, like, a little bit sick.

Karissa: Yeah. So she was diagnosed with m... MS, the hole in the heart.

Mandrae: I had a hole in the heart. So they To have heart surgery.

Karissa: I think they did a EKG.

Mandrae: During the day. So we had all of that on him as well.

Karissa: So she had all of this going on

Mandrae: It's three and under.

Karissa: And three kids. Right? And so the cause of it, we kinda went went back and forth in terms of what was causing it, which we believe was what?

Mandrae: Causing what?

Karissa: the...

Mandrae: No. I had... The birth control.

Karissa: The birth control.

Mandrae: The doctors solidified. I came to the conclusion that the birth control that I was on when we got married, which I hadn't been on for three years, had caused many strokes in my brain. Like, they're... The birth control I was on, they had all these lawsuits out at the time. Mhmm.

Mandrae: And so I believe that’s what caused the MS, the hole in the heart I had since birth.

Karissa: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So so so with all of that going on, Mandrae’s thinking, alright, man, I need to get a vasectomy. Right?

Karissa: And really at that point, it was almost like a threat to her, right, that I’m going to get a vasectomy. She was reading a book at that time that was called Be Fruitful and Multiply. I mean, so she had read the entire book. She's on fire about this whole trusting God, no intervention, none of that, no prevention. And she said, hey, before you make that decision, read this book.

Karissa: Right?

Mandrae: No. The book is what the bible says about it. Okay? It’s not just...

Karissa: Rance. That’s not Rance. Don’t agree with that. that is that is her interpretation. What it says.

Karissa: And it’s a good book. Good lady who wrote it. I get it. But here's the thing. At the end of the day, I picked it up, read the foreword.

Mandrae: Yeah. He didn't

Karissa: read it. And I did... I didn’t read the book because I... You read what it’s about before you dive into it. Right?

Karissa: And so when I read about what it was about, I was like, man, you know what? This is a woman's opinion who wrote this book. Right? It’s man made. Man, yes, she used bible verses and all the other stuff.

Karissa: But if if we’re honest about it, man, people can take any bible verse and tailor it to what they want to. Right? Yes. Alright. Yes.

Karissa: Okay. I’m clear. Alright. So with that being said, I refused to read the book. Right?

Karissa: I told her, I said, you know what? I’m a go to God. I’m a pray about it, and I just wanna hear from God on this topic. And a lot of people say that, but I literally did that. Right?

Karissa: So I went to God and I brought him every single obstacle, every single thing that I can possibly think of, like, man, God, like, what if my wife don’t make it? I’m left holding a bag with three kids. I got a job and many other businesses, and I gotta find a way to get a nanny. Like, I gotta figure this out. Right?

Karissa: What if it... What if they cost too much money? What if I can’t find enough time to spend with them? They’re feel like I neglected them. Right?

Karissa: So, like, all these things that you can even possibly think of. But as I continue to sit in that fast of seeking God on this topic, he came back with one answer, and it's... I’m bigger than all those things. And that changed everything for me in terms of how I view more children, trusting God. We were out in public.

Karissa: Now mind you

Mandrae: To be clear, this was a four year journey.

Karissa: This is

Mandrae: So what he's saying right now, it took four years for him to really hear God on it to, like, make that decision. So when I was... When... After I gave birth to the third, I ended up going on birth control because he said he was gonna give vasectomy. And I said, well, I don’t wanna do anything permanent, so I went on birth control for two days.

Mandrae: The holy spirit wouldn't let me swallow the pill for another day. Like, the holy spirit in me was like, you cannot do this. And so that’s when I told him, you have to get a vasectomy because I’m not doing it. Like, I want no part of it. And I looked him in the eyes, and I said, you will have to answer to God for this.

Karissa: And so after, like I said, after this time with God and really getting clear... Hearing the clarification from him in terms of his viewpoint on it. We were out in public with our children, and the lady goes, man, those children are so beautiful. How many more are you gonna have?

Mandrae: Which everyone says every time, and I always answer.

Karissa: And so so she intentionally didn’t answer this time. So she looked at me. Right?

Mandrae: Yeah. Because we fought we fought the police.

Karissa: She looked at me, and I think that this was something that really kinda blew her away was when I looked back at the lady and I said, man, we’re gonna have as many as God's gonna give us.

Mandrae: And I had no idea.

Karissa: Because she didn’t know... She didn’t have any idea that God changed my heart on this topic. The last conversation she heard was that I’m gonna have to get a pheractomy.

Mandrae: And so I always thought maybe he got it and I didn’t know. I kept getting pregnant. Like, this was by the time we had baby seven that he... I think it was right before he got pregnant with baby seven that God changed his heart. Mhmm.

Mandrae: So it took a good four years Yeah. For the change. So it isn't like... It’s just a super simple... But his thing now, the thing that he gets a lot of men...

Mandrae: Because we have families come over and spend ten minutes with him, and you’re gonna be like, oh, yeah. Of course. It’s a obvious decision. He's just like... It’s just faith.

Mandrae: Like, you just... You try to spot or you don't. It’s like literally that easy but that hard.

Karissa: But... Yeah. I mean, it’s it's... But to your point, though. Right?

Karissa: Like, that should be the core of our conversations. Like, while we’re sitting here on Outpost right now, we’re talking about, man, family size. Like, if if if I can’t attack the root, then the tree don’t matter.

Rance: Yeah.

Karissa: You get what I’m saying? So, like, for for us to... Back to you, Cameron, like, this was my journey of struggle, and this was my journey of saying, you know what? I’ll just cut it off. Right?

Karissa: Because I got so much going on. I wanna make sure the wife is good. Let me tell you, my wife is in the best health she's ever been.

Kevin: Yeah. Uh-huh. Right?

Mandrae: She had good heels.

Karissa: Now now now watch this, All this stuff about MS holding her heart, we went back to the doctor. She has no signs of MS, which people will say, oh, it’s an incurable disease.

Mandrae: Yeah.

Karissa: Then somebody's gonna have to tell me why this miracle lady here has absolutely nothing. Right? Somebody's gotta tell me why this hole in remark... Hole in the heart is not even visible. Right?

Karissa: Like, that to me showed that when you can clearly operate in obedience, god meets you on the other side. He always meets you on the other side. It’s never a before thing because to to your point, it ain't faith. Like, I’m not gonna give the crying baby candy before they act right. Right?

Karissa: We need you to act right to get the reward. So it’s no different in this life. But, man, that was the journey that I took. It was a lot of struggle, and I challenge other men because a lot of them come to me. I don’t know if there's anything that any man has ever said to me that I didn’t think of or think through or go through, right, or struggle through to be able to get to where I am now.

Mandrae: The thing with the book that I gave him to read, he could have read that book. That book, the Lord actually told me to read. But he could have read that book and he could have just been like, fine, God told you, I’m gonna do it. But then he wouldn't live it. It wouldn't be his life.

Mandrae: The thing is, as men and as women of our homes, as mothers and fathers, we need to not seek what our our spouse thinks is the thing do. We need to not do what the pastor says is the right thing to do. We need to seek the Lord. You have to fast and pray. You have to have relationship for yourself, and you have to ask anything.

Mandrae: Anything you do, you should be seeking God first. Don’t seek... Like, seek his word, but you don’t have to... You shouldn't be listening to what other people think is right or wrong. You just ask God, and you don’t relent until you get an answer.

Karissa: Man, I love that. And I think even for the viewers, man, know this is... I know you guys are in charge of this, but I feel really called right now to be able to say, man, to anybody viewing this, Mhmm. It is so important that you don’t become a nagger to your partner if you were fell... If you were feeling in a certain way to really trust God in this area, that you don’t nag.

Karissa: Right? Because I think that pushes you further apart than it ever than it ever will pulling you back together. And so the best thing that you can do is pray for them and challenge them to seek god on the matter. And I’m so glad I didn’t read this lady's book. Right?

Karissa: Like, as much as they say it’s a great book, I get it. But let me tell you, the end... The word that I got from God is better than any word that I could have read in a Yeah. And so for me, it solidified in me now. Like, I...

Karissa: This ain't up for negotiation. Trusting God is not up for negotiation for me. Right? Because he solidified it himself. Therefore, my answer has never changed.

Karissa: People ask me today with 11 kids. How many kids you gonna have as me as god will give me?

Mandrae: Yeah. We don’t know. And the thing is trusting god, people think means 25 children. But there's... I’ve met so

Karissa: many people.

Mandrae: I've met so many people that trusted God and had zero, trusted God and had one, trust... Like, it doesn't... You just trust God. And ultimately, he knows your your situation. He knows your circumstance.

Mandrae: He knew I had a mess. And the thing is a lot of people are like, I’m not going to have another child because I’m sick. Well, if you just give it... God knows you’re sick. He knows what you’re going through.

Mandrae: He knows that you might be ten pounds overweight. He knows all of those things and I’m telling you his timing can be trusted. I have put him to the test many times. I have been like, okay, if you just are intimate, you’re just gonna get pregnant. It’s not true.

Mandrae: If you fully surrendered your family size to the Lord, he will take control of it. And it isn't just whenever you’re intimate. It isn't just when you’re ovulating. You don’t have to think about that. The coolest thing about trusting God is it’s freedom.

Mandrae: It's pure freedom.

Karissa: Yeah.

Mandrae: You don’t have to worry ever if I am gonna get pregnant or I’m not gonna get pregnant. I don’t have to worry about any of those things because I know he has the his best intentions for our family. He knows our circumstances. He knows our situations. And he...

Mandrae: His way is better. So, I always tell people, I am more afraid to prevent. I am more afraid to not trust him because I do believe that you can have children outside of his timing, and it can be a complete mess. We just don’t know what's best. Only he does.

Mandrae: Yeah. And we have to trust that.

Rance: Yeah. Karissa, thank you. You know, I wanna touch on something kind of vulnerable. I mean, this whole conversation has been vulnerable, but, you know, you've got parents out there who would love to have a house full of children and who can't, you know, for a variety of reasons. I understand that you guys have experienced miscarriage in in your own story.

Rance: You know, what would you say to to those that or maybe they'd love to be married, but they haven't been able to find, you know, that their their spouse. What what would you say to someone who longs for children but but can’t have them?

Mandrae: So the exact same thing. You just surrender it to the Lord and trust God. So in the Bible in the Bible, all the infertile women that they speak of, all he blessed them all with children. And so, I a 100% believe that you just give it to him and trust him. And they cried out for children.

Mandrae: Like, they longed for them. It’s okay to have those feelings, to long for children. I believe baby fever is a gift from the Lord. I believe he gave that to us, and a lot of women want to quench it and pretend like it’s not there or deny it or justify it. But I believe that the Lord’s given women that feeling.

Mandrae: And so, I believe that if you have that, that you just give it to the Lord. You can cry out for children. Yeah. You can adopt. You can foster.

Mandrae: There's so many other things and I know so many women that have given that to the Lord, then they go on to foster and then they have their own children. But ultimately, it’s just you trust God to give and you trust God to take. So we have had four miscarriages and they have been so hard, my last one, I think, being my hardest. And I ultimately, like, full on believe that it is so much bigger than just trusting God to give you all these children. You have to trust him when you have one almost dying in the hospital.

Mandrae: Like, we have crazy testimony about that. You have to trust him when you have a miscarriage. And I have so many friends having miscarriages right now. And what I always say is you gave that baby eternity. So I believe that the children in our womb have eternity.

Mandrae: And so no matter what... Some women have had nine miscarriages in a row. Well, you've given nine children eternity. Like, there... It’s not a lost pregnancy.

Mandrae: It's not a lost child. It’s still a blessing, and you've still given it life.

Kevin: Amen. That’s beautiful. It’s funny, Mandra, you said earlier that, you know, we’re in charge of this podcast, which it’s very clear that we are not in charge of this podcast. We had a very different direction for where this was gonna go, and that’s why... Kinda like having kids, it’s his plan.

Kevin: And so, what I hope everybody heard and everybody took away, because the reality is, and I’m sure you guys have this in your life, that people that you know, that you love, that you believe are theologically sound still disagree with you. And and you've... Yep. I hope you found that this is... You know, we all believe in Christ, who are in the family and the kingdom, and this is not necessarily a hill to die on, and we can disagree and still move forward in the kingdom.

Kevin: But I hope what everybody heard, whether they agreed with everything you said or not, is two things. One, that children are a blessing, and that they are only, good, and they only have value, and, they are always of God. And two, which was very clear, this really does come down to a trust thing with God, which was hit home for me and was already a challenge for me because you can apply that in so many areas of life and one that we probably don’t think of enough when it comes to, children. So whether you got a big family, small family, we’re all been challenged to see our kids differently and to trust in the Lord for all provisions, financial, everything, whatever it is. And so outside of that big step to take, we always do a small step to take.

Kevin: It's called our Outpost Challenge. This is where in the show you guys get an opportunity to challenge Rance and I in something, a small step that we can take with our families this week. And then listeners, whoever's tuning in, they can take it as well just so we can make sure that these are not just... That we’re not just consuming something, that we’re actually taking this information, and we’re taking small steps this week. So I’m excited, nervous, all the above.

Kevin: I think you guys are probably pretty creative. So give it to us. What do got for us?

Karissa: So, man, I would chat... This week was a good little time with our family. And one of the challenges that I will have for you guys is, man, take time to sit down with your family collectively. 1 John three is one of 1 John one through 1 John one through three, is is one of our favorite passages. So really take time and read that through, with them.

Karissa: It sets the tone for what it looks like to live in Christ with a sinless life. And so... And that’s all also about that because I think that when you sit down and you have a conversation with it, a lot of eyes are opened. In terms of that, yeah, I’ll just keep...

Mandrae: I'm gonna clarify what that looks like. So when we decided to home church, we... Well, this is mostly him, but the Lord told him that the main mission for home churching was to raise up the men to be present, spiritually present, and leaders of their homes. Because ultimately, in America, the husbands are going to church, sending their kids off, and never talking about anything spiritual in their homes, expecting the churches to raise up their children. Right.

Mandrae: And so, in starting the home church, every Sunday, we sit down as a family, we pray, worship, and then read physically the word because, unfortunately, in the church, children think the Bible is for the adults and that they can’t they can’t understand it. So what we have is a generation of adults that think the Bible is too hard for them to read. Every time I challenge people to read the Bible, they’re like, I don’t understand that. I’ll never understand that. I can't.

Mandrae: That's too... It’s too complicated. That’s why we invite our children in because the holy spirit is not... It is universal for children and for adults. And so we invite our children in to read the same things we’re reading and to hear it.

Mandrae: I don’t care how old you are. I don’t care if you’re six months old. You’re hearing the word of God, and it’s doing something to you. So our children say... And we read two chapters every week, but the challenge is for you to sit down with your kids and just as a family read like six verses at a time.

Mandrae: Each person reads and then discuss and then read and discuss. Worship and pray. And I will tell you

Karissa: Yeah.

Mandrae: Our children, we've seen the most transformation in their life by doing this. And at first, I thought it’s so hard to get like, you know, a toddler to listen or even an eight year old to sit and listen. And after doing it for six years now, it is their favorite thing to do. And it blew my mind because one day, I took my daughter to her birthday dinner and I asked her, what's your, like, favorite thing of your whole life? And she was turning 12, 11 or I think 11, maybe 11.

Mandrae: And I said, what was your favorite thing in your whole life, like, best day of your life? And she said, every Sunday when I sit down with you guys. And I said, no, no, no, no, no. Like, what's your favorite day, like, going to Emma's house or 6 Flags or

Rance: Mhmm.

Mandrae: And she's, like, sitting down with you... I’m gonna cry. She's, like, sitting down with you guys every Sunday. Like, I didn’t realize the impact it made. I thought that it was like annoying to them that they had to sit down with their parents and read the bible, but they...

Mandrae: It has changed their faith. It’s changed Yeah. Everything about them. So...

Karissa: And so that... Like, part of that challenge when you guys are reading with them, I think it’s so important to ask them what their thoughts are.

Rance: Yeah.

Karissa: I think a lot of children are not used to having their opinions heard. Right? Most of the time when they do speak, it’s coming from a childlike position to where adults kind of put it off. They don’t listen to it as much, or they don’t they don’t they don’t put a lot of value on it. Right?

Karissa: But in this setting, we’re talking about the word now. Right? To where we’re all children. We’re all children. So in those settings, yeah, you’re you're called to be a leader.

Karissa: You're called to be a priest. You’re called to, you know, to to to to to manage that peace as a man. But for for a couple minutes, let us all just be children of the Lord to where we are just listening and we’re learning together. And I think that... I wanna see...

Karissa: I wanna hear from you guys in terms of how that really does transform your your family, and just kinda hear back from you guys on that.

Kevin: We asked for a challenge for a step to take, and you just said, hey. Just create a family rhythm of every Sunday for the next Yeah.

Rance: Forever. No. Challenge accepted, Mandrae and Karissa.

Karissa: This has

Rance: been awesome. I mean, as as Kevin said, there's there's so many other paths we could go down in this conversation. So more to come. We'll have to have you guys back. Thank you just for modeling surrender and, you know, a walk with God where you're...

Rance: It's just simple trust and obedience, and then we've gotten to see the blessing that has resulted in your family. Thank you for sharing that with us today. It was really powerful. And for those of you who are listening, I hope you'll take that challenge too that they shared and and do that with with your family. I hope you'll share this episode with others who need to hear this.

Rance: Help us spread the word, and we look forward to seeing you on the next episode. Thanks, everybody.